Building Confidence in Singers with Carolyn Baker – Episode 32

With over 20 years experience in vocal coaching, Carolyn Baker understands the hopes and struggles of singers performing in front of an audience or in the recording studio. She also works with those who use their voice professionally like public speakers, CEOs, Managers and teachers. Each person, group, band or business that she engages with is personal and unique and each session is tailored specifically to their needs.

Connect with Carolyn

Website: voiceupcoaching.com.au

FB : facebook.com/voiceupcoaching

FB Group: facebook.com/groups/531508318225790/

0:01  Welcome, everyone to the Resonate Podcast. I’m Aideen, and my guest today is Carolyn Baker based in Melbourne, Australia. And let me tell you a little bit about Carolyn before I introduce her. Carolyn has over 20 years’ of experience in vocal coaching. She understands the hopes and struggles of singers performing in front of an audience or in the recording studio. She also works with those who use their voices professionally, like public speakers, CEOs, managers, and teachers. Each person group band or business that she engages with is personal and unique. And each session is tailored specifically to their needs. Welcome, Carolyn, thank you so much for being here.

0:40  Thank you. I’m so excited to be here with you today. I’ve been looking forward to this.

0:45  Yes, we’ve had a little chat before. So we already know that we’re on the same page, in terms of vocal coaching and the importance of it and the potential for it to help people in more ways than just what people might think in their head. Absolutely no, what training your voice is, tell us a little bit about your journey to doing this work and what it makes it so important to you?

1:14  Well, I think from a very young age, music and singing has been has impacted my life and my emotions and helped me work through a lot of emotions. And when I realized that even when I was three years old, I wrote my first song about an emotion that I was having. And, and so even from that young, I saw the impact that it could have for healing. And as time went on, my sister’s an amazing singer. And she’s older than me. And so I saw her really love singing. And I was like, Oh, I love singing too, because, you know, that can happen with siblings. But it turned out that she loved doing the melody and was excellent at it. So I had to figure out a way to, to also do something different outside of the melody. So I was massively into harmonization. And how harmonization could impact in emotion of how the song was going. So then when I went to primary school, I was able to be in a choir. And the choir was one of the second best Primary School choir in Australia. And the lady that ran it is amazing. Her name’s Anne Williams. So shout out to her wherever she is in the world right now. But she brought so many of us through with seeing an array of songs so we could learn about life. And, and then she gave me this precious opportunity to become a section leader of the Alto ones. And that’s where I realized for the first time they loved singing, I loved the voice, but I loved helping people. And so that was the start of my journey to become a singing teacher. And, but to say, just being a singing teacher, it doesn’t equate to the immensity of it and the joy and the full heart of it. And the impact of it. Yes. So anyway, yeah, as time went on, the love of singing continued, I became a soloist, I studied, I did popular music and performance and music, industry knowledge. And I really loved that. But even when I was there at Uni, I was still helping people learn how to sing, and not just with their voice with their emotional state to or their maturity. And so for one person, they were really struggling with harmonization. Another person, they struggled with changing the key, their ear was set to the key. And so anytime someone changed the key, they couldn’t go with them. And then somebody else had this incredible agility with their voice and could go all over the place. But I didn’t know how to let other people have a spotlight. And so people were finding it very hard with that person. And so I was able to not only help them with their singing, but also help them understand if you allow other people the spotlight, when it’s your turn, you will be able to shine instead of people wanting to put you down. So there’s so many aspects of singing and facets to the whole body when we think because it’s a whole body experience. It’s a life experience. I have a quote that I wrote that says your voice holds all your past all your hopes and all your emotions. Because that’s what the voice does. And we can’t take apart the mind body spirit. We can’t take them apart. When it comes to the voice, so I am quite passionate. Yes, I’m quite passionate about the whole person and their unique voice. And I do believe everybody can sing. I know a lot of people have challenged me on it. And I’ve said, let me give you a lesson. Just one lesson, and then you will say that you can sing. Yes. And I’ve heard other people say yes, but some people aren’t making this thing. And I and I challenge that too, because I think singing is good for every single person. And I do believe everybody has a beautiful voice, if they choose to take the time to look at themselves and let their voice be unique. And unlike other people,

5:42  that’s beautiful. Yes, and do. I’m sure you agree with me on this, but what do you think the side effects of doing the singing are the positive side effects.

5:57  I think everything’s a positive side effect of singing, to be honest. So not only does it light up numerous parts of the brain, unlike anything else. So memory intake, it helps processing it helps auditory and oh, gosh, there’s so many I’m on the spot now. So I’m going blank, but in every aspect of the brain that lights up. And, and that’s crazy amazing. But apart from that, when you sing and when you have a singing lesson, it also releases the full feel good chemicals of the brain. So dopamine, serotonin, endorphins, and oxytocin, which are is a massive mental health protector. And you’re giving your body a workout. So it’s also physically good for your body, it helps your heart rate, it. It’s just so good on every front. And it allows the person to have a voice and to learn how to hear their own voice and get in touch with their inner voice. Because generally what will happen is, people don’t even realize when they come for a lesson, but they’ll bring a song. And it’s it stopped shocking me now. But shocking is not the right word. It stopped surprising me now. But the amount of times, if not nearly every single time that someone brings a song, it has something to do with their inner voice wanting to come out a grade, something to do with a trauma they have experienced, needing to come out and they have found this song. So I had a student once they came and she was very shy. She was only 14 Beautiful, beautiful person. But she came with these really full on strong woman songs, booting songs. And I, we worked together for two terms. So basically six months. And at the end of that she was doing these strong, strong songs. And she was smiling and her voice was coming out clearly. And we actually got to work through. There was just a very specific moment where her voice was struggling to come through. And I said to her, can I ask when someone hurts you, do you? Do you walk away and have a moment of silence hoping they come after you? Or do you let them know that they’ve hurt you? And, and she said, I walk away hoping that they come? And I said do they come? And she said no they don’t. And I said Ah okay, that’s interesting. And I said what do you think might happen if you said something, even if you wrote something so that people can understand that they hurt you anyway, by the end of that six months? It might sound strange, but something happened in the lesson. And she told me off, straight out. And I was so excited that she told me off. Because she was doing it. She voiced something that she was upset about. And I said oh, you know, I obviously said sorry, straightaway, because as teachers, we are humans. I mean, sometimes we get things wrong. And even though we try our best to do things correctly and do things right and do things carefully and gently. Sometimes we don’t. And so we do need to apologize, because we are people. But I said to her I’m so excited. And she said, why? And I said because you just told me off. And she looked at me really quizzically and but it was such a highlight because she made that journey in the six months. And then when she realized what she’d done, she was excited. And we had a little celebration of you know, jumping up and down and then she sang the song and she sang it fully and it was it was beautiful.

9:59  That’s all So do you use with your public speakers as well? What does the crossover do for you working with someone more as a speaker?

10:11  Well, I was I’ve been a public speaker for 15 years now. And I’ve spoken to five year olds all the way up to seniors. And so, and I run my own training courses and, and programs. And so, and having been being a singer as well, there’s a lot of crossover. So apart from warm ups, and cool downs, hydration, humidifiers, like all of those things, but also how to work the voice to keep people interested, you know how to take care of your voice with vocal health. There’s just so many, so many spaces to think through as a public speaker. But also, if you’re a manager, you’re on the phone the whole time. You’re having meetings the whole time. It’s different spaces, there’s different ventilation. How many coffees you having a day coffee is not bad? By the way, can I say that? It’s not bad, it’s a bit of a myth to say that it’s bad. It is a slight dehydrated, the coffee by itself if you were just eating coffee, but it also has water with it. So you are having hydration with it. But still, there’s what people eat during the day as they’re going in their energy levels, it affects the voice clearing your throat, coughing a lot, you know, coughing, you can’t help but things that people take medicine that people take can have a big effect on the voice. So knowing that, I want to say from the outset, I’m not a speech pathologist. I’m not a vocal specialist. I haven’t been trained in that yet, although I will be. I will be training in that in the next three years to become a rehabilitation voice specialist. And I’m very excited about that. Because eventually, I want to work with people, singers, and anyone who’s had performance trauma, because that’s a big part of singing and vocal trauma. And so, but yes, so the speaking side is equally as voice care needed as the singing side.

12:17  Beautiful, beautiful. And we were talking and I know that you’re going to be speaking at the voice and songs summit on

12:28  April. So excited. Yeah, really

12:31  excited to be promoting the festival, calling a festival now. It’s a celebration of voice and song. Maybe I should call it a festival instead of a summit. We’re going to have so much fun is there? I mean, do you feel that people understand the value of working with the voice? I mean, do you find often that’s misunderstood or underestimated?

13:01  I definitely do think it’s underestimated. One day, one day, I might get a PhD so that I can go to the government and say, sorry, the education sector and say can we make singing a priority in schools because of the mass, mental health protecting areas of singing, but also how it lights up the brain and helps people be aware. I mean, any mental. Any diverse mental spaces, benefit immensely from singing. If you see somebody that has Tourette’s, somebody that has a stutter somebody that even has Parkinson’s, singing helps. It can take away a stutter if they sing. It can make someone’s brain spark in different ways. It can create so much mental health and so yes, I do think full heartedly that singing is underrated. But I am excited to say that in the last five years, it has been on the rise to understand that singing is a professional help for people. And, and I’m excited that we’re at the start of that Aideen you know, we’re in the process of making it more well-known and the journey for people to learn that singing even in the shower, even thinking about singing not even singing yourself thinking about singing, releases dopamine in the brain and gives you a mental health kick. So I do believe yes, it’s underrated, and I would love to see more help for that. It’s also an incredibly healthy safe way to work through emotions, because it has a start and has an end. You know, goes for three and a half minute sometimes five, sometimes two. And people work through emotions, the amount of times that I’ve seen people cry through lessons through those songs. Like I said before, I’m not a counselor, I’m not a psychologist. And I don’t pretend to be, I don’t ask them more in depth questions. But if I see someone cry, I say, keep singing, sing through it. You don’t need to tell me what’s happening. But just let the emotion out. And it creates more healing and more healing. And then they leave, they feel lighter, they feel more happy. They feel like they’ve worked through something. And yes, I will say to them, here’s a counselor that you might want to see, or a psychologist, if it’s gone deeper for you. You know, here’s the speech pathologist, if I’m hearing some vocal trauma, and vocal trauma is really normal for anyone that’s a singer or public speaker. It’s just learning how to, you know, take care of it, and then take care of yourself in the process. But the first question I always ask people when they walk in the room is how’s your day been? Yes. Because instantly, you know, you hear about their day. And, you know, they think I’m being nice, but I’m actually listening to hear how weighty has your day been? What’s this week been? Like? What’s this lesson, we’re going to be like? How gentle do I need to be with you today, depending on what their goals are, because, you know, some people come in and say, I’m a professional, I want to hit these goals, I need to hit them for my next performance. And so that’s very different from someone coming in for self-care, who’s got a really intense job. And they’re just coming to laugh through a lesson and seeing. So you got to be listening, listening to find out what people need, yes,

16:47  it has to be appropriate for the particular person, but I agree with you that you can’t really start singing. Unless you’ve got that kind of almost you, you’re clear enough to do it. And it’s like you need to, you need to land, you need to land in the spot with the teacher and be present. And anything that’s happened to you in that day, or anything that’s, that’s on you, that’s like covering, you know, that bothering you, that stops you from being present to how can you have How can you sing if you’re feeling? You know, it’s the voice doesn’t hide those things. So it’s better just to say, oh, yeah, I’ve had a hard day or, you know, and that’s the beauty, like you said, of singing, because it actually does help to transform emotions, that helps to bring you back into your body. And you become aware of something in a gentle way. And I love the idea of you saying, How is your day and leaving space for that person to just be authentic and be real. That’s the starting point for music, because we can’t sing from the heart unless we’re being real. So that’s beautiful. Tell me I want to

18:02  actually heard somebody say that the voice is between the head and the heart. And I loved that, because you can’t connect the head and the heart unless you go through the voice.

18:16  Or something to that I need to think about it. It’s like, okay, head heart voice. I do when I when I perform, like if I’m doing recording, I check in with my chakras, and you know, kind of energetically feel like energies moving up, but also energies moving down. So energy moving up from the, from the ground, like Earth energy and air energy moving down from, say, the spiritual or the, you know, the divine. And that’s where then I bring it all together, I tried to hold the energy of the song in my heart. And that way, the whole me is starting to work with it. And I guess I’m starting to get that resonance that that I’m always looking for. But I’m curious, what does the word resonate mean to you?

19:04  resonate to me, means listening to your inner voice, and letting it matches up with your reality. So to be honest, I think resonance means honesty to me. And when we’re honest with ourselves, that’s the space for healing as a space for growth. That’s the space for freedom. And because honesty can be a very scary thing. And it can equally be incredibly freeing. In honesty, we acknowledge the things that we’re not doing well, we acknowledge the things that we are great at. And we can also acknowledge where to grow. So when I when I teach him singing, I’ll never say a critique. I’ll say, a look, we found a growth point together after the person has said I’m not good at this and I’ll say No, that’s not the truth. We’ve just found a growth point. And all that means is your A and you want to be a B, and we just need to go through a process to get to B. That’s all it means. Yeah, and the freedom that I see in people, and I actually find resonance, right at my first lesson with people, I talked about my two golden rules. And that is, I don’t care how you sound. And that shakes people a bit, because everywhere they go, especially professional singers, will be like, the sound is everything. And I say yes, but then you won’t allow yourself to make mistakes in the sound. And you’ll get tense in the sound. And I just want to hear everything you’ve got, I don’t care if it sounds good. And instantly, the room changes. And then the second one is you do everything with me. So if I’m going to do it, then I’m going to show you then we’re going to do the technique together, and then I’m going to watch you do the technique, and then you can go do the technique at home. So I’m not going to let them do something without me showing them a healthy way to do it first, and then and then so we can do everything together. But I think having the freedom, to be honest, is a really rare space in this world. And it’s been fascinating, heartbreaking, inspiring, thrilling, when people let that honesty come out in the lessons. And a lot of the time. When I say that, especially to professional singers, they break down. Because the immense weight of the industry of having to sound perfect all the time. It’s next level. Yeah,

21:47  there’s definitely I always feel a little sad about the elitist kind of side of music and singing that kind of diminishes the performance. But based on, you know, something very small, very technical. I remember performing actually in one of these competitions, and I was doing the song, what was it from phantom of the opera about the Father going, you’re going to the grave side? Oh, yes. Yeah. What is that one I forgotten? Think of me, maybe. And I got to one of the points in the song where there was a lot of motion and my voice cracked. And I got critiqued on that I was like, well, you did do digital, and you recovered. And I was like, you know that voice crack would have meant more to the audience. That’s right, many, many, many regular audiences. And maybe not someone who’s listened to that musical a million times, they want the polished version. But I knew that that was that was my truth. And I didn’t, I didn’t feel bad about it, I was glad that I was able to hold space for it and not crack that crack in the middle of the song and not seeing the rest of the song because there is a feel to that as well. But I when I teach when I teach singing, and when I speak to people about being themselves and being authentic, sometimes that’s what’s needed. And people feel terrible. I mean, I’ve spoken to, you know, to people in work, say situations where they’re having a difficulty, or they need to express that they’re stressed or something. And I said, Well, if you go into your manager, and you tear up a little, that’s good, she’s going to really know, then that’s true that your sister has you know, rather than trying so hard to hold those things in and pretend and being real. It’s just, there’s so much transformation potential in being real, so much more than in being what you think the person needs you to be.

23:51  Yes. So that is what I think about read it resonance.

23:57  Beautiful. It is it’s about authenticity. It’s about being real. It’s about I love that I just love I just want people to know, I want all the listeners to know that you’re enough as you

24:10  are exactly right. Yeah. And that is about finding your unique voice as well. And don’t get me wrong, like I do have a line about songs that are physically violent towards other people. Because, you know, my space is, if we’re going to be honest, we need to talk about pain. And that’s generally where violence comes from. Anger, not knowing what to do with that immense pain and anger. Yeah. But and so when students come and they want to sing a song that’s violent, as with any song, I’ll talk through with them. You know, tell me about why you want to sing this song. Let me know I really genuinely want to know is it about the VO Cool. Spice in it. Is it about the words? Is it about the musicality of it? What do you like about it? And so as we go through that, and then I say, what’s the song about? Let’s talk about what the song is about. And then I let them talk about it. And we get to talk about it a bit more so that as they sing it, they’re singing it from the understanding of the song. Because I think sometimes we can sing songs and not realize the impact that it’s also having on us. Yeah. And so that’s been, that’s about honesty and freedom as well. I believe to help people have that healing and have that freedom. And sometimes people just want to come and sing the song, because it’s super fun. That’s it, you know, and it’s super appropriate and whatever, but they just want to sing it. And that’s great. Like, it was just because I love the song and I want to sing the song. That doesn’t bother me, because that’s for a different reason. But yeah, so I do think resonance, it does really matter why people are doing what they’re doing, why do we do what we do, we want to have our own unique voice, it is okay to have our own unique voice and have our beautiful own impact on this precious world. Full of people that meet a unique voice that maybe will impact them that they will have healing from. So I do think the resonance is the honest thing. But that honesty effects like ripple effects into the world. Because we’re not an island. We’re a village. So everything we do impacts everyone around us.

26:38  Yes, I agree. I agree. And I just love the idea of that our voices are a form of communication that’s deeper than just the words meeting our brain. You know, like, when we sing something we say, you say the words we sing the words, but when we, when we receive communication, it isn’t just the words, I love you going into your brain, it’s the vibration of the tone of someone’s voice, how they say it. And when we sing something, and bring a quality of truth. And I mean this to the words that you’re singing, there’s something so beautiful in that when it comes to the heart. Yeah.

27:29  I love that. Yeah. I think everybody has this, though. I think that the difficulty is, most people think only Celine Dion or Carrie, I don’t, you know, some of these iconic singers. And they’re worthy to sing. You know, but the fact is that each of us have love on our hearts, we each of us have a story to tell. We each of us have had experiences in our lives, who each of us have wisdom of some nature. That’s right. And that part of us, when we share, it can be transformative. And we shouldn’t just think of only so and so or my voice. We don’t need our voices to be perfect. And we don’t need to be the best

28:21  status. That’s right.

28:24  There’s value anyway, right? Absolutely.

28:28  Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a precious gift, a voice. Actually, I think it was Roger love. He was in a TED talk, speaking about the voice, and he said, you can think all these thoughts. But the moment you let it out of your out of your mouth, it becomes this gift to the world to know you more. And I loved that. Because that resonated with me. You know, and the thing is that our voice can change all the way through our lives. I remember when I started singing, I was singing choir songs. And then I started singing R&B because I love R&B. And then I started singing more ballad songs, and now I love singing jazz, and your voice is allowed to change with you as you grow and your voice will change. It will it has to because our bodies change and our thinking changes and our perspective changes. And our life stage changes. Yeah. So it makes sense that our voice will change with it and have deeper and different depths as we go. And, yeah. So I think we have to allow for that change as well. You know, and when you become a senior, your voice changes again, in all these different aspects in ways. So yeah, we really need to meet people where they’re at, like you said at the start Art, to allow people to have the freedom to be with their art and choose their next stage they want to go to you know, they’re at a they want to go to be, how do we get the process to get you there. And then it’s not about your voice being good or bad, which I am very against. It’s about the process, and a process to go where you would like to go. So it’s almost separate from you is the process, but it’ll impact because you want those things. So the growth and the freedom that comes from that and allows your voice to be more free as well. And you get to share that gift of people knowing you through speaking through your voice. Otherwise, they don’t know you. That’s beautiful. I mean, quote, mad

30:48  that you share your letting people know who you are through your voice. Yeah, yeah, it’s a lovely. Really,

30:59  I just want to put a little asterisk, and say that you can let people know who you are without using your voice. But it is a helpful space to let people know as well.

31:11  Yeah, what do you think that we do? I mean, sometimes what we wear is everything that’s expresses, you know what I mean? Whether you go to a crochet class, or you go to, you know, you know, whether you go to Mass, or whatever it is, all those things that become part of who we are, were saying something about who we are, depending on where we go, what we wear, what we do, and who we hang out with. But the voice is a very subtle form of energy. And yes, and I think that’s why people feel so worried that they’re going to be criticized about their voices. Hmm, yeah, other people won’t ever learn to sing because they fear that it’s almost like the truth we express through our voice is very deep, and we feel it. It’s like we feel in every cell of our bodies, we actually feel our own voices. Yes. And the voice doesn’t really, it doesn’t usually lie, it’s hard for the voice to lie. That’s why lie detectors can work so well, most of the time, unless you’re trained to be able to lie. But our voices are so unique. And they carry so much of our truth.

32:23  They do. Absolutely. And even now, when I you know how I was saying how, at the start of a lesson, and especially the first lesson, I get to ask, So what brought you to this point, you know, why do you want to sing? Why do you want to have lessons and just hearing their goal was from the start, but I had this this person come once. And then they just said, I just want to like this out of my voice when I sing. But a couple of times through what they were saying. And this is the thing, when you’re a singing teacher, you start picking up when people say things more than once, in a short amount of time. Because our whole job is listening, listening, watching, observing, encouraging. And, and this person kept saying, Oh, my, my partner, and I laugh every time I sing. And then they said it again. And then they said it again. I said, Ah, I’ve noticed you said this a few times. Does it hurt? And then they said, does? Does it make you feel sad? Or does it hurt when you both laugh about your voice? And then they said actually it does a little bit. And I want to feel comfortable singing at home. Because I love singing. But I don’t want to be a professional singer. I just want to sing and know that. Other people like the sound of my voice too. And this person had a stunning voice. Stunning, stunning. And they just needed a little bit of training and encouragement. Yeah, so it is it’s there’s so much of internal that comes out so much. In fact, I don’t think there’s not a lesson that something internal doesn’t come out.

34:11  Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. And I would definitely if anybody’s listening that sometimes gives advice to others like off the cuff or, you know, you need singing lessons or, you know, don’t quit the day job or there’s a few comments that people tend to make about singing that they think is like a joke that they take. There may be saying it lightly, but because people are sensitive about their own voices, and because it means so much to them, we can hurt someone’s feelings quite easily with the wrong comment at the wrong time. So I think that’s good just to remind ourselves and others that it’s better just to encourage someone you know, what would you like? What do you like about your voice or like, did you have fun you know, Oh, when I worked with people in my first lesson, I always talk a lot about the journey. I want that playfulness in the journey. Oh, yeah, taking the lessons. Because when someone is very focused on oh, I want to do a performance they want one singular moment. Yes. I’m just thinking what why? Why waste all of your enjoyment on one singular moment when we can have enjoyment all the way through and every time you practice and every time you sing at home. And so that journey of exploring the voice, I was talking about the exploration, and I see the voice as a treasure, it’s almost like a treasure hunt.

35:36  Yes, it is. It is a treasure hunt, I completely agree.

35:41  So finding the treasure within your own voice and finding that you know, kind of exploring and playfully experimenting with your voice to find it is one of the pleasures of working with someone, especially when they trust you to let it out. And, you know, fail and succeed and have fun and croak a little bit and squeak a little bit.

36:06  And laughing is a massive part of it. If we can learn to laugh at the things that we don’t think sound right. It’s this massive release, you know, oh, no, that didn’t sound I know haha, we’re alright, let’s keep going. Let’s find out that, enjoy that more, you know? Yeah, eating, it’s great.

36:25  Before we finish up, is there anything else you would like to say to our listeners,

36:31  I would encourage you to come to the summit, it’s going to be really good. It’s going to be lots of people speaking about the voice about songs and about singing. And if this is something that you really care about, or that you even just enjoy, and like, come along, because, you know, we’re here for you. We want to do this for you. And we want, we want to know what you want to know about and we want to bless you so. And also, if you’re on the fence of wanting to have singing lessons, please just come. Just come even for one lesson and find out more about your voice and about your unique voice and have fun in the process. It is it’s an amazing, amazing gift to be able to sing and have people not care how you sound and enjoy it with you. So if you’re on the fence about it, please don’t hesitate. Just come and let me say you will hesitate. And that’s okay. But just call anyway. Cool anyway, because the first one’s always the most nerve wracking. And can I say as teachers, we get anxious and we get nervous as well when his new student comes in, even when we’ve been teaching for so long, because we want to make sure we take care of you. It’s because we care about what we do. And you care about your voice in yourself. So as in, you know, your whole self, you don’t want to be hurt when you come. And we’re aware of that. It’s not counseling, it’s not psychology, but it’s a stack of fun and, and it brings healing if that’s the space you want healing in, so

38:08  beautiful. Thank you so much, Carolyn. It’s been a pleasure to have you on the resonate Podcast. I’m going to include some links. Yeah, I’m going to include your links and things like that in the show notes. And I definitely encourage you if you are listening before the first of April 2023, please come to the voice and song Summit Live. And if you have missed it, the recordings are available. So please let me know get in touch. And I’ll make sure that you get access to that. And thank you so much everyone for listening. Take care, and we’ll see you next time.

Email Aideen to access the recordings of our 2023 Voice & Song Summit